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Turn-based combat system 2011


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#1 bitComposer_Games

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:30 PM

Dear JA Community, We would love to receive your suggestions and ideas for a modern, turn-based combat system. What do you think a modern version of such a combat system should look like? What is wrong with the existing JA2 combat system, what annoys you about it and what must be retained without fail? We look forward to hearing your proposals, suggestions and ideas. Thanks! Your bitComposer Team

#2 Geist

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:51 PM

The existing JA2 combat system is perfect. Please do not change it. Change the AI, change the quests, change other things, but do not change the IGOYOUGO system (with interupt of course).

#3 The_Shadow

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Posted 12 October 2010 - 03:58 PM

i also think the combat system is nearly perfect the way it is. the only thing i can think of would be to allow your mercs (and the enemy of course too) to fire while moving, but this only would make really sense if the suppression fire is implented like in v1.13...

#4 Dr.Shrooms

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 08:08 AM

The Original JA2 TB-system was based on 30-35 AP (IIRC). That was nice & clean, however in my personal experience with the JA-series (including the 1.13 mod) & several other TB-games a 100 AP system allowes for greater flexibility. Components like movement costs, equipment usage & inventory management (this is not original JA but several games experimented with it) do benefit from it as you can make both terrain & equipment more complex in terms of benefits & penalties. Combat also usually gets improved alot in terms of versatility & gear progression. As each weapon, armor & explosive device can get more varied stats instead of the occasional +/-1 to aimtime or damage. The biggest trouble with modern TB-systems, especially in 3d, are sightlines, cover & pathing. Sightlines are difficult to judge because of the 3d enviroment. JA2 for example had a rudimentary cover system & everything was just on two lanes (? right word ?) - the ground & the roofs. If i compare for example JA2 with the Brigade-series (E5, E6) the question if i can hit something is often only solved by equipping a laser marker, in SilentStorm (1&2) i often found windows (even opened) to be exellent bullet-catchers although i should be able to shoot through. Last pathing, see 'Hired Guns, the jagged edge'. 3d Maps with nice hills, collapsible buildings & nice stuff. HORRIBLE PATHING! For some reasons making maps more complex means we need a better pathing system - you might want to make it clear what we can or cant do with the enviroment. On enviroment & enviromental destruction. JA2 was (imho) surpassed only by the UFO-series in regard to enviroment & its role in combat. Collapsing entire building blocks to access hidden enemies is in JA2 impossible, though blowing holes in walls really, really helped alot in the later sectors. In modern games the SilentStom-series takes away the cake - the enviromental destruction (in addition to be able to finally climb though windows) is simply beautiful. A bit on the simple side when it comes to mechanics but a defining step foreward because we can actually USE it to open up new ways to access stuff through climbing. Stuff like climbing trhough windows, climbing trees, sliding down or climbing up slopes are a small steps in terms of a more accessable enviroment, leading to a more belivable world. (In JA2 we are being stopped by a 2-3m high cliff - and i dont mind it but ...eh) But again always doublecheck your pathing system lest you end up like the Brigade-series, with a 120m detour to reach a spot thats 10m away & only 2m lower on a slope. Well, does that help? I do can offer the same stuff in german if demanded.

#5 kraj0t

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Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:30 PM

The combat system always felt perfect to me. What I missed was more information, more statistics, about the actions I decided to take. For example, to me it is very upsetting that there was no way of knowing beforehand whether crouching behind a rock would cover my merc - I often ended up saving/loading the game after finding out that the enemy could shoot me. So, the combat system is perfect, but the player needs more helping tools, like vision cones, occlusion... The new game being in 3D, I suppose many of the isometric view problems will be automatically solved :-)

#6 defender

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Posted 19 October 2010 - 06:04 PM

Well, I think the combat system is well designed and totally fine. Though some help for players would be fine like .. uhmmm cover, because it is isometric game and everything here is all about tiles/ squares, either the enemy can drop you down with ease behind that rock you crouch, or you are pretty safe there. Basically I mean some -on the flight- help for detecting these things... because again, everything here is about tiles and sometimes normal understanding of space doesn't work here. And maybe this is not considering the combat mechanics, but when I played ja2 my mercs get tired and they often had to fight exhausted, but the enemy and millitia, npc's basically were refreshed every time a new map is loaded. Ehm I mean that I would love to see more randomization of single non player character conditions and basically randomness factor in the game as whole, I think it's fun. I don't know much about physics and weapons :oops: but It would be interesting to see how bullets would be displayed and if there will be any bullet drop... for some reason I thought it was pretty big.Uhhhh :x these should be suggestions, what I am talking here?? :o ... basically I wanna make accent on keeping the existing combat system, as we saw in JA2. This is my vision on combat system for modern tactical game.

#7 DelTaGC

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 12:30 PM

Combat system like 1.13 is nice, with suppression fire (or optional suppression fire... options are good to please a maximum of players !). Eventually a "cancel last action" button would be nice to undo stupid actions or when accidentally clicking on the laptop touchpad A finer selection of IA turn speed would be appreciated, it is boring to wait on them (especially militia) What is more important is information about the combat system, like GUI "mouse-over information", chance-to-hit estimation, feedback from the mercs, and clean, easily accessible cover/danger zones map. If you really want to experiment with the turn by turn system, the game Frozen Synapse has a nice concurrent turn system implemented...

#8 Graicav

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 12:31 PM

The combat system in JA2 was nearly perfect. The system's only flaws were extremely short ranges of weapons and vision. Fix that and its a-ok!

#9 wardivich

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 12:43 PM

repeating what most peaple have already said - the combat system for JA2 is fantastic already. if a 3d enviromet is being used, a view from the prospective of a merc wouldn't be a problem to implement, which would get rid of some of the problems of knowing exactly where the cover is in relation to the enemy. personly, i would like an option to quickly make my own maps/objectives (including a zombie enemy that i could make and play a "world war Z" senario) - it would add sooo much more playability to the game as well as genarate material as peaple share what they have made. also i'd like hand grenades to take 2 turns to use, 1 to get the grenade ready - pull the pin etc.. and the second turn to throw - i just love the idear of shooting someone as they get ready to throw a grenade and make them drop it. hehe as i'm in full "i want" mode i'll add the use of perisopes and/or mirrors on sticks so the mercs can look around corners or from cover to see if the enemy is there :?)

#10 murass

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 12:48 PM

My propositions: 1. Cancel 360 degrees of vision - change it to something like 90 degrees in front of the merc. 2. Make a better lob movement of a grenade - now grenades too often stops on small obstacles. Generally look at 1.13 mod - I think it's great and full of great ideas.

#11 Mindless

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 12:49 PM

I agree that JA2's turnbased combat system was near-perfect the way it was. The only suggestions I can think of are.. >Full Auto; like it was used in the Silent Storm games. The option, on some weapons, to spend all availeble AP's on a fully automatic burst. Maybe only once the rod-and-spring is attached? >AI Abuse; The close-door-open-door and throwing a grenade while prone on a roof in JA2 was 2 great ways to cheat the AI... making the AI interupt these 2 moves would make it a bit more fair:) >Advanced Tactics; some advanced scripted "actions" would be nice, like "flash and clear" where 2 mercs can, one open and another throw a flashbang to clear a room... beats having to walk Gumpy in to enemy fire as cannon fodder. >Tons of Guns! More toys are always welcome. >Gadgets, expand on electronics like the extended ear to help combatents as well as more weapon mods and upgrades. >Slo-mo kill, rather silly but having some bullet cam slomo kills might be rather fun with a 3d JA. >Militia, being able to give basic commands to Militia... attack here... defend this... and so on. Have a look at the 1.13 mod for JA2 for some good ideas as well... maybe even contact the guys that made the mod? I'll post if I can think of more... thanks BitComposer for this:)

#12 gips

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 01:09 PM

Peeking behind walls and corners is a MUST. It is just ridiculous to walk with level 8 merc crouching in realtime through a door, and to take turn before the enemy who is already pointing his gun towards the door. Things like this should be avoided, lets say the level can be advantage, but not that much.Another example is your merc level 2 silently antering a room behind unaware enemy, who takes turn before you and makes swiss cheese from your merc simply because the enemy is lv 4. Actions like peeking should be implemented to give you more options in these situations. When you peek behind the corner the enemy can get the turn before you, but you are still around the corner, and not in front of him, so he is not able to shoot at you directly. Also the materials in the environment should have statistics for bullet penetration.And the bullets should have statistics for material penetrations. Because you can offen see a bullet touching a wood edge and hitting your merc for -1 point, because he wears spectra helmet. Well i think something like -3 or -4 is more acceptable in this case. Also taking turn before the enemy for shooting in his direction through the wall, because you know where he is.This must be removed. After all you are shooting at him, so he should have the option to take cover :)

#13 Kite

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 02:03 PM

It's been a long time since I played so forgive me if these have been covered. - Grappling hooks to scale buildings, towers, cliffs. - Boobie trap doors with grenades. - What the heck, why not -- The ability to lean out of cover to fire. - As much built-in mod support as possible (map maker, unit builder, weapon editor, effects editor, AI scripter). See ARMA 2 for inspiration. - Build a mod support infrastructure within your website so people can share their work easily. - Physics-based interactions with environment (body slumps against door causing it to fall open.) - (Probably already in but) Bullet Penetration & Ricochet Values for all materials in game including body armor and flesh/bone. - Allow multiple ways to throw grenade (precision baseball throw, short toss, long lob, drop, roll). - Grenades are 3D objects so they bounce off geometry and roll down inclines. - Multiple levels of gore (including on/off). Pipe dream, but hey this a wish list. - Machine gun nests or other gun emplacements that can be entered. - Bullet casings all over the place. :) - Zip-cuffs - Ability to take people down non-lethally. - More Melee Weapons and more ways to use them. This may be more for mod community. PIT FIGHTER! - Improvised Melee Weapons (shovel, chair, bottle, broken rifle). - Loss of hearing, loss of sight due to concussive effects. Definitely affects combat awareness. - Off-map artillery - radio in artillery or mortar strike. - Vehicles? Hoo-boy. That would be lovely. Pickup trucks with HMG mounted in bed. Old school bus with a MG nest on the roof. This could be an environmental feature (non-driveable). But would be cool if the vehicle at least sustained damage in a realistic way (glass shattering, wheels flattening). I will go back to lurking now. Thanks for the opportunity to share! I can't wait for your game.

#14 wardivich

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:12 PM

id just like to add kite's list above to my list of wants :?)

#15 skulaluks

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:38 PM

Hi, My only suggestion is to preserve the turn-based system of JA2 as it is. Try to play UFO aftermath -its system tried to be more realistic, but because of that it is just more borring.

#16 WTFGamer

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:41 PM

I'm going to toss the chaos grenade and suggest a system change. Have you guys played Valkyria Chronicles? I think it's the greatest update to the turn based tactical squad game in decades. Making Jagged work like VC would be amazing.

#17 Kite

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:53 PM

While I can appreciate what VC is doing, it's in no way shape or form what I would like JA to become. I love VC's art direction, but not for JA. JA has done a lot right and there is a very intense following. I wouldn't change the game dynamic too much as it's considered by most fans to be pretty near perfect for them.

#18 Souleymann

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:57 PM

+1 with everyone,keep the JA system,but bring ameliorations as proposed:vision,occlusion,possibility to give basic orders to milicians(attack,defend,withdraw).

#19 Komodo

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:59 PM

1. Do not change JA 2 system 2. Add features from 1.13 mod That's all ! Better pay your attention on AI, perfect 3D animations and physics.

#20 kmekanik

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 04:59 PM

There are a LOT of intelligent suggestions here, which I like a lot. I love JA2, but I don't agree that NOTHING needs to be changed or that it should stop at 1.13. Suggestions from Dr. Shrooms are excellent and would be an improvement. Also, at least, some of what Kite has said. Lastly, and I'm not sure this will be met with a lot of support, but I like the concept that a lot of turn based systems have tried to move towards (some badly, some ok, none perfectly), which is a system where you assign actions to your mercs and let the time lapse in real time for both parties while they carry out their actions. You can pause at any time to redirect your mercs to do whatever else. It gives you the ability to control the strategy like a TBS, while carrying out the actions in RT for more realism. Attempts were made in games like Escape From Alcatraz, Brigade E5, Hired Guns... i'm not saying ANY of these guys nailed it, but if some one could nail this concept, it would be the perfect system to blend TBS strategy w/ RT execution. KM




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